Blanche and others who have done hydrotherapy

northernwitch wrote:Well, I guess for me the usefulness of the neuro consult would be to tell you what the problem is so you can at least know what wouldn't be helpful. I understand about not doing the surgery--I'm less inclined to that option myself depending on the diagnosis. But it's possible, I guess, that some alternatives might not be helpful and could be harmful. At least with the neuro consult, you could say to the acupuncturist or chiro or whoever that this diagnosis is........
And a diagnosis gives you a starting point for researching what your options are. There may not be any, but I'm always a bit fearful of things like chiro and physio without a diagnosis. Acupuncture I just don't know enough about to say if they require a diagnosis or not.

Yeah, that's what keeps pulling me back in the direction of doing the neuro consult - at least then we would have a diagnosis. I definitely would not do chiro or other physio without a definitive diagnosis - the thought of moving or adjusting things without knowing exactly what's wrong freaks me out way too much. I've got a call in to UW Madison and they're calling me back on Monday with pricing on the tests and to talk about scheduling an appointment for her. I'm currently trying to be patient - give it the weekend and talk to the vet school and then make a decision after that. In the meantime, however, I keep rolling everything around in my mind, making myself crazy.

Been there and done that, Rachel. You're safest option with her is to limit her activity as much as possible and start documenting everything--times of day when her mobility is worse, how long it lasts, does she have any changes in her sleeping/lying down patterns, etc.
I'm so sorry that you are going through this. It's awful to not know what to do and not to do or what the hell is wrong.

dieselsmom wrote:My hesitation with doing a neuro consult, MRI and myelogram is why do the tests if I won't put her through a surgery? I'm almost certain I wouldn't put her through any sort of surgery, so what then would be the purpose of doing the tests? Just to have a definitive diagnosis? And can we do acunpuncture without having a definite diagnosis? I'm at a loss of which way to proceed. I welcome everyone's advice. I've been going back and forth all day long on what to do.

I definitely think that a neuro consult is appropriate, even if you're not looking at surgical options. I think that will give you a better idea of what does an expert's clinical exam indicate, what's the best case and worst case scenario, and what ARE the surgical options and what would those mean in terms of prognosis and recovery? Getting a consult certainly doesn't mean that she has to have surgery, and I would be up front with the specialist that you're really not looking at that as your frontline option for XYZ reasons. I completely understand your hesitance to do an MRI or myelogram (with the associated anesthesia for her and cost for you) if it wouldn't change treatment. I made the same decision when deciding against a liver biopsy for Jax when his liver issues turned out NOT to be an operable liver shunt. But if the tests would change even non-surgical care, then it may be worthwhile.

As a PT, I'm very comfortable treating lots of patients (most of them, actually) without an MRI. There's a very high false-positive rate for mild/moderate disc problems in humans anyway, so routinely ordering one just isn't warranted and doesn't always give useful information. (I'm not sure if the same is true for dogs or not). There are times, though, that I really DO want to know what's anatomically going on, particularly when there are motor changes, reflex changes, or if parts of my clinical exam conflict with each other or just don't add up. I think it's very fair to ask the specialist, "How is the result of this test going to help in determining our treatment plan?" They may have very good reasons for doing the tests that make sense to you... or they may not.

Another question that I have, that I have NO idea what the answer is... do they ever do steroid epidural injections on dogs? That's often a solution for some of my human patients when I'm not enough, but surgery isn't warranted or isn't feasible. I don't know if canine anatomy allows the same type of thing or not.

Makayla had a tough night. She had several episodes last night, managed to get some sleep and then was up again at 4:30 with another episode that knocked her off the bed. It looks to me like her back/legs spasm resulting in her not being able to stand up and while the episode is happening, her back legs kick straight out in spasms. I'm going to video it today to show the doctors - it's easier to see it than it is to explain. Anyway, I took her outside this morning after her episode and we walked outside. She ended up having another episode, which resulted in her scraping her pads on her back feet raw and bloody on the concrete. So no more walking on the concrete - we're now carrying her to the grass so she doesn't continue scraping her pads if she has episodes. Got her back to sleep, got up and fed her. Carried her out to the grass to potty. She was having episode after episode and it was all she could to get herself pottied and pooped. She wandered across the yard and when I looked back she was struggling out in the yard looking so sad.

So, today is going to be a day of rest for her. I've decided that for now we are going the acupuncture route. Honestly, I go back and forth on this decision every five minutes and I hope that I'm doing the best thing for her. This is one of those times when it's no fun being the one who has to make the decision - it'd be so much easier if someone else told me what to do and then I did it. I don't like having options and having to chose and can only hope I choose best. So I'll call the holistic vet tomorrow and we'll get her in for acupuncture as soon as possible. Now if only acunpuncture could cure her mommy's frayed nerves!

dieselsmom wrote:Makayla had a tough night. She had several episodes last night, managed to get some sleep and then was up again at 4:30 with another episode that knocked her off the bed. It looks to me like her back/legs spasm resulting in her not being able to stand up and while the episode is happening, her back legs kick straight out in spasms. I'm going to video it today to show the doctors - it's easier to see it than it is to explain. Anyway, I took her outside this morning after her episode and we walked outside. She ended up having another episode, which resulted in her scraping her pads on her back feet raw and bloody on the concrete. So no more walking on the concrete - we're now carrying her to the grass so she doesn't continue scraping her pads if she has episodes. Got her back to sleep, got up and fed her. Carried her out to the grass to potty. She was having episode after episode and it was all she could to get herself pottied and pooped. She wandered across the yard and when I looked back she was struggling out in the yard looking so sad.

So, today is going to be a day of rest for her. I've decided that for now we are going the acupuncture route. Honestly, I go back and forth on this decision every five minutes and I hope that I'm doing the best thing for her. This is one of those times when it's no fun being the one who has to make the decision - it'd be so much easier if someone else told me what to do and then I did it. I don't like having options and having to chose and can only hope I choose best. So I'll call the holistic vet tomorrow and we'll get her in for acupuncture as soon as possible. Now if only acunpuncture could cure her mommy's frayed nerves!

This is just breaking my heart! For both of you. I know that as a pug parent it is so hard because they can't tell us how they feel. I was going to tell you to get videos. I took serveral and took them in to my vet. For one-the floor is not the same as your house, and two they get excited/stressed and their adrenaline starts pumping and they either don't move at all or move in a totally different way. It is okay to change your mind 100 times if you need too! LOL! Hugs!

Ok, I managed to get a video of one of her episodes:

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v416/rachelp/?action=view&current=MVI_1063.flv

Okay, 1. keep rugs out for her to walk on. Baby Girl will got from rug to rug, but does not walk on the hardwood floors or tiles in the kitchen. From BG perspective, the holistic vet said that more she falls on her rump, the continued trauma to her spin she will endure. BG will stop at the edge of the rug and demand that I pick her up. 2. Along with the rugs, are the episodes more that Kayla can't get traction on the hardwood floors? She seems to be able to stand up pretty well on the rug and her tail is up so that would tell me that she has enough control in her lower spine to raise her tail.

Here are some videos from this summer that I uploaded of BG, this was about 4-5 weeks into it. She had been on pain pills and antiinflamatory drugs. You can see that she knows her legs are back there, they are just not working 100%.
I have to go to the grocery store, but I'll try to get a video of BG today to show the difference.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/papaspugs/sets/72157622636644985/

Jana, she gets traction just fine on the hardwood. She was able to stand up on the rug because her "episode" had ended. Yep, she can still curl her tail up. Her episodes are the same in the grass as in the house, so while I'm sure the hardwood isn't helpful, it also doesn't change her episodes. She'll fall on her rump in the grass just like she did on the hardwood. I'll try to get some videos of her outside too when we take a potty break and I'll see if I can get some of her walking when she's not having an episode.

It does look like a traction issue, but clearly if it happens on the grass and concrete, it isn't that. Weird. The next thing that occurred to me were myoclonic jerks. Know how you leg or arm spontaneously jerks when you're asleep or falling asleep?
Not that I know diddly squat about this, but it does make me wonder if she's not having some sort of muscle spasm or nerve misfire.

Ok another video. This starts with her just walking and at the end she has an episode.

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v416/rachelp/?action=view&current=MVI_1069.flv

I've talked to the holistic vet. We're doing moist heat 10-15 minutes of every hour until we get in to see her tomorrow morning at 11:15. We're keeping her as quiet and calm as possible and trying not to let her walk - only when she has to go outside to potty.

That does look like an involuntary spasm. When she has the spasm, is that when she loses control of her bowels? Girl, I will be saying a pug prayer that y'all make it through the night without any incidences. 11:15 can't come soon enough, I'm sure. Does this happen when she is just sitting? Or does it seem to be triggered by walking/getting excited/certain times of the day?? Just reaching for straws here.

papaspugs wrote:That does look like an involuntary spasm. When she has the spasm, is that when she loses control of her bowels? Girl, I will be saying a pug prayer that y'all make it through the night without any incidences. 11:15 can't come soon enough, I'm sure. Does this happen when she is just sitting? Or does it seem to be triggered by walking/getting excited/certain times of the day?? Just reaching for straws here.

Actually, since we started doing daily Deramaxx two weeks ago, she pretty had gotten bowel control back. In fact, since these episodes started on Thursday, she has had bowel control. Right now, at least, that's not an issue.

The episodes actually happen when she's either standing or walking. A few times I've noticed them happen when she's sitting, like the one at 4:30 this morning that knocked her out of bed. Otherwise, it's always when she's standing or walking. Initially I only noticed them when she'd get excited - dinner time, when I got home from work. But now it's pretty much all the time, not really anything that "triggers" an episode.

I took her out after dinner, carried her to the grass. She started to walk and then had an episode. She's now at the point where she's getting discouraged. After that episode, she sat down and refused to even try pottying. So we'll take a trip back out in a little while and see if we can get her to potty and poop. She hasn't pottied since late morning. And she should typically have a potty after dinner.

You're right - 11:15 tomorrow cannot get here fast enough!! I've never wanted it to be Monday so bad!

Thinking of both of you and I hope the appointment goes well.

My first thought was traction, until I saw the outside video. Poor thing, she has to be terrified. And you too., Rachel. I'm saying prayers tonight that the moist heat helps some and that the holistic vet finds the answer. Tomorrow morning can't come soon enough.

Rach, you know I am praying for Sister!!!

Just checking in to see how the visit went...

Well, Makayla had a bad night again last night - slept maybe an hour at a time. We went to her regular vet this a.m. first thing to have him take a peek and just keep him in the loop. Then picked up her records and xrays and went to the holistic vet for a consult and acupuncture. The holistic vet took new xrays of her back, but was unable to see anything clearly on the xrays to confirm whether it was disc related. She recommended we not do acupuncture and instead take Makayla to the referral center about a half hour south for a myelogram, CT, or MRI, whatever they recommended. Ok, I was so not prepared to hear that!!

So we took the trip to Appleton and they finally did the CT scan around 4:30 this afternoon (thank god for my incredibly understanding boss for letting me take an entire day off to deal with this!). I absorbed a lot of info tonight, so I hope I'm conveying it all correctly. Makayla has lumbosacral disease. Basically, she should have 7 lumbar vertebrae - she was born with 6. Her 6th vertebrae is compressing her spinal cord and causing the "episodes" of spasms/twitches. They recommend surgery to remove part of that 6th lumbar vertebrae to relieve the compression. They are going to send the CT scan out to the board certified radiologist to have him confirm their findings and will call me in the morning. But chances are Makayla will have back surgery tomorrow at some point.

There really is no non-surgical option. We can medically manage her symptoms; however, this is a birth defect that will not resolve itself without surgery. She will continue to deteriorate - no telling how fast or slow. This may very well have been just a flare up that we could get under control and see how she progresses. But the problem with waiting for surgery and medically managing this for now is that the more she deteriorates, the less likely she is to have a successful rate of recovery after surgery. Makayla is only about 7 and I'm simply not ready to let her lose the use of her legs at this young of an age when there is something we can do about it.

So, I will let you all know when she goes in to surgery. If you all could spare about a thousand prayers for her (and another thousand for me as I'm a mess!), we would so appreciate it. She's a tough old bird and she isn't about to go anywhere anytime soon, but we all know how scary surgery is on our babies. And this is even scarier because it's spinal surgery.

Kayla has been in my practice ever since this started. I will say more prayers for her, and for you to, Rachel. This is not what we wanted to hear, and there is a hope that surgery will fix her problem. Many many hugs to Sissy and to you and Josh. And hug Diesel and Gracie, too.

Rachel I have been thinking about you and Kayla. I hope that whatever tomorrow brings is successful.
You are a good pug mommy!!

Praying hard for you & Makayla today, Rachel!