Liver and Milk Thistle

The vet (aka Secret Agent Vaccinator ) called last night with Nell's lab results. She had the bloodwork done because the meds she's taking for allergies have steroids so we have to monitor her liver. Anyway, she said her ALT is slightly elevated and suggested we start giving her milk thistle. Anybody have experience with this and if so, did it help? I'm conflicted about what to do here because after all these years, and all the things we've tried, we've finally found something that gives her relief from the itching (and ear infections and crazy anal glands) but I feel guilty that I'm knowingly giving her something that is damaging her liver. The other problem is the dosage she needs. We've tried on several occassions to move down on the dosage but she still needs 1/2 pill/day. The vet wants us to try to get her to 1/4 pill and eventually even less than that but I really don't think it's going to cut it.

I think Hilary has used milk thistle before. And was Blanche using it with little Leila when she had her?

I used both (and should still be using the SAM-E! ) Sam-E (actually, the kind I have has some Milk Thistle in it, and the vet in WI I've consulted thanks to Rachel also suggested (when E's #s were high) to add extra milk thistle for 2 weeks.) I got some capsules from Whole Foods and put I think about 1/2 of the powder inside in at least one meal a day...sorry I can't remember details, but I'm sure your vet has given you dosage.

This is what I got (only the 225 mg size) for the Sam-E, and it does have some of the milk thistle in it:


E's #s did go down, so I don't know if it helped, but it's worth a shot!

Hmmm...I should ask about this the next time we go in. So far, Sophie's blood work has been ok, but I am going to ask to see if we should get her on this.

I've had 3 of my little mushroom eaters on it for a couple weeks at a time as a precautionary measure. I know I got it from my vets office and he told me the dosage.

I didn't use either of those on Leila, but I do use Sam-E on my pugs from time to time. It's worth doing, I think.

Interesting about the Sam-E. I actually take it myself but had never read about use in dogs. For those who give it, why do you prefer this to straight milk thistle?

My regular vet, who deems himself conservative, says if there is any hard science to back either, it's the Sam-E.

As I said, the one I have has the m.t. in it., and as I also wrote (I think) the other vet who suggested it was the one who said to up the m.t. for a few weeks along w/ giving the Sam-E combo, and and then just continue to give the combo.

E's numbers were ALARMING, btw...like prepare myself for the worst alarming...but he recovered, thankfully.

SAM E really helped with my boy Pugsly. He had to take steroids to keep his lungs open so he could breathe, and it made a difference in lowering his levels.

I know that some will disagree, but if this medicine you are giving her allows her to have a good quality of life, then that is what she needs. My Pugsly would not have lived as long as he did without steroids, and I would give them to any of my pugs if it meant they felt better. I'm all for trying different meds and holistic approaches, but I want my pugs to feel good because I know that I would hate to itch all the time, couldn't stand not being able to breathe good or to be in pain.

I bought my SAM E at Sam's Club. I believe my vet said to give it on an empty stomach so I would usually give it right before bedtimes since Pugsly ate dinner at 5pm

Yes, Sam E does need to be given on an empty stomach, so I, too, would give mine to E just before going up to bed, since his other meds need to be given on a FULL stomach! Oy!

I think it is a quality of life issue too. If the dog is just miserable and the steroid will help I would have to give it to them. I have gone to traditional vets and holistic vets and while I prefer to use something natural it just doesn't always work. I can't imagine itching all the time with no relief. We all want our pugs to live forever but we have to keep them comfortable so they can enjoy their lives.

I'm going to leave her on it. I agree that it's about quality of life. We'll just monitor her liver every few months and if it becomes a major issue we'll deal with it then. The only thing I hate about the steroids is how food crazy it makes her. She was bad before but now she's just nuts! It can be a bit hard to manage sometimes with a toddler in the house.

I have a four year old pug with a liver shunt. He was not a candidate for surgery so has been on a low protein diet and lactulose since three months of age. My vet suggested milk thistle and gave me capsules. Well, the Bud Man will not take them no matter what I do! I even had my pharmacy compound it in a chicken flavored liquid. Forget it! If I managed to get it down, he then would refuse his lactulose. It takes at least two of us to get it down in capsule form. I've had to give up as it's more important that he get the lactulose. He takes it without a problem. I just tell him medicine and open and he does. Can anyone suggest another solution?

http://www.drugs.com/vet/denamarin.html

Snifter is on Denamarin at the moment, if it is of interest.

I don't know what to suggest if a pug won't take capsules. Filling capsules is the only way I can get Snifter to take drugs. I stick them in some salmon mousse which has a good pate type consistency and he wolfs them down. You have to serve immediately, though, or the capsule shell will break down and release the taste of the meds into the food.

I got Toddy to take capsules by dipping them into philadephia cheese so they were lightly coated and then immediately followed up with super treats (in his case poached fish).

I haven't tried the salmon. Do you mean cream cheese? Haven't tried that either but I certainly will! Does Snifter have a liver shunt? How old is he? I worry every time the Bud Man exhibits any unusal symptoms thinking this may be the end! He's such an old man ( even if he's only four)and I love him dearly. I know the time we've been given with him is blessing but know he won't have the long life I want for him.

We get salmon mousse here in sachets, specifically for dogs. Yes, I mean cream cheese.

Snifter does not have a shunt, and he is 6 years old. However he is currently recovering from a bout of acute hepatitis which is why we are supporting the liver.

I hope you can get the Bud Man to take his capsules - they can be so stubborn, these naughty pugs.

Snifter&Toddy wrote:http://www.drugs.com/vet/denamarin.html

Snifter is on Denamarin at the moment, if it is of interest.

I don't know what to suggest if a pug won't take capsules. Filling capsules is the only way I can get Snifter to take drugs. I stick them in some salmon mousse which has a good pate type consistency and he wolfs them down. You have to serve immediately, though, or the capsule shell will break down and release the taste of the meds into the food.

I got Toddy to take capsules by dipping them into philadephia cheese so they were lightly coated and then immediately followed up with super treats (in his case poached fish).

Sophie's on Denamarin too now. Thankfully she will take a pill like it's a treat. Good thing too since she takes a million a day.

Amanda,

I know Lew Olsen (who wrote Raw and Natural Nutrition for Dogs) is a proponent of milk thistle. I don't remember reading about Sam E though in her book, but I may be forgetting. Visit her website and her B Naturals site. I think you can find a lot of information there. Her B Naturals site would have a natural supplement for liver support. She actually has a whole chapter on diets for liver support.

You might check on Dr Karen Becker's site or FB for information too.

My opinion is that you know what's best for Nell, and if the steroids are helping, then there is no need to continue questioning it. Just focus on how you can support Nell's liver function.

As for pills - my sure fire way is using raw chicken hearts. At the top of the heart is the hole where the main ventricle is. That hole is just the right size to stuff a pill into it! I'll give one heart without the pill, follow with one heart that has the pill, then follow immediately with another heart. My pugs LOVE raw chicken hearts, and they are darn cheap at the grocery store too. I keep them in little servings in the freezer and pull out as needed.

Amanda wrote:I'm going to leave her on it. I agree that it's about quality of life. We'll just monitor her liver every few months and if it becomes a major issue we'll deal with it then. The only thing I hate about the steroids is how food crazy it makes her. She was bad before but now she's just nuts! It can be a bit hard to manage sometimes with a toddler in the house.

Don't have any experience with milk thistle, but I agree with your decision. So long as you get regular liver function tests, they will catch anything before it becomes uncontrollable. As you said, it's about quality of life. Humans do it, too. There are several drugs, such as methotrexate to treat RA, that are proven to kill your liver 100% of the time in sufficient dosage. But doctors prescribe it anyway because for some people it is the only thing that gives relief and a decent quality of life to sufferers.

Just work with your vet to find the right balance on the dosage of her meds and get her liver regularly tested. Nell will probably still outlive you.

My vet recommended milk thistle and my homeo vet recommended SAM-e. We've used the SAM-e with Tank as his liver values tend to go up and down. We couldn't use the milk thistle with him as he is allergic to it--like most plants with him. There is a product called Hepato-support that I tried with Tank--my homeo vet said she'd never seen it really work and we discontinued as Tank reacted to it due to the milk thistle in it.

Leila is still on a liver diet, lactulose and metronidazole for her acquired shunts and is doing fine--bit off topic of the whole milk thistle deal.